Grim Train

[syco26]

A customer has bought me a picture to have put on his tanks. It is of another artwork done by another artists so I have changed iut up a bit to make it different. The original is on a black bike but his is bright green. I have started the base painting but I'm at a cross road and can't dicide which road to take. Should I hit it with black and shades of grey like the original? Should I add some purple to the black and go at it like that? Or should I just mix up a candy purple and hit it with that? If I go the candy route will the candy purple over the green create a nice dark almost black colour?
Here is a pic so far. Sorry the quality is so crap and the colour is real dark and washed out but my phone is all I have at the moment.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/syco26/RicksTank1.jpg

[insanealex]

thats a really good start.. that looks like its gonna be sick.

[TrikerJim]

I like the black and gray tones. If I were to go with candy, I'd think of a toxic green candy, and maybe add some yellow highlights. Just my taste. :) Great work so far!!!

[syco26]

Thanks for the coments. It is a real bright green now but you can't really tell because of the bad photo qualkity. It really does look better in person than what the camera has picked up.

[TrikerJim]

I really like the detail the black gives it. You could still candy it, and if the toxic green was too close to the base color you could go with a yellow candy. Shoot some white on a scrap piece of stuff and candy over it to see what it would look like next to the tank. Just a thought. :)

[Annie]

It's looking great!
Very nice white foundation.

Personally, I'd candy it and like Jim said, with yellow highlights. I wouldn't hose it down with candy though but work the candy in gradually with the airbrush to get many variation of green and a lot of depth.

Keep us updated!
Looks awesome so far :yes:

[shane]

great start man, i am going to go against the grain here i think but i would use gold and rootbeer candys and then yellows for the high lights, the gold and rootbeer i think would make the image stand out a bit more and then for the smoke thats trailin off it i would use a rootbeer/black mixture with maybe a bit of candy red or purple in the mix to darkin it up and add some depth. :dunno:

[Annie]

great start man, i am going to go against the grain here i think but i would use gold and rootbeer candys and then yellows for the high lights, the gold and rootbeer i think would make the image stand out a bit more and then for the smoke thats trailin off it i would use a rootbeer/black mixture with maybe a bit of candy red or purple in the mix to darkin it up and add some depth. :dunno:

OOOoooooo I like that!!!! Awesome idea Shane :yes:

[syco26]

Thanks all for the coments. I think that would look great Shane but the problem is the customer really wanted the black but said maybe purple in it but said he didn't want other colours at all. I told him that the background colour and the design wouldn't really flow well but he wanted it so here I am.
I'm kinda restricted with the candies I have. I currantly have cola, blue steel, reef blue, saphire blue, emerald green, blood red, lava orange and sahara yellow. I think the cola would be like the rootbeer. With the purple I was going to add drop for drop of the blood red and either the reef or saphire blue then adjust acordingly to try and achieve a nice purple/magenta.
Would you do the base painting in an over reduced black first then add the colour or build up the colour then detail it in black? If I was to do all the detailing in black first I guess I could clear it then get the customer to have a look after putting candies over the clear, then I suppose I could 1200 the candy back off the clear if he doesn't like it.

[Annie]

Definatly detail in black first :)

[syco26]

I'll detail it tonight, bloody 38 here today and blowing a stinking hot northely, so I'll wait to sun set when it cools off a bit and white in the other tank then throw in some detail. I've grabbed a camera from a mate but don't think it will be much better than my phone camera and I'll take some pics once I'm getting through it a bit. Where is the best spot here to post walk throughs or wips? I snapped a few pics with my mobile while I was laying down the foundation and if any one is interested I'll post them.

[syco26]

While I'm here what would be the best way to tie the train into it's back ground without killing too much of the green?

[shane]

I'll detail it tonight, bloody 38 here today and blowing a stinking hot northely, so I'll wait to sun set when it cools off a bit and white in the other tank then throw in some detail. I've grabbed a camera from a mate but don't think it will be much better than my phone camera and I'll take some pics once I'm getting through it a bit. Where is the best spot here to post walk throughs or wips? I snapped a few pics with my mobile while I was laying down the foundation and if any one is interested I'll post them.

yer not from round here are ya stranger? :73:

here is a great place to post up the progress pictures man and i would defiantly be interested man. Like the Annie one said start with the black i think :tt2:

[syco26]

You are right shane. I blew on over here from airbrush.com/forums. Been here a few times before but never hang around long but airbrush.com is very stail and you wait days for a responce. Here however is bloody brilliant. Quick and informative responces. It is a really great place for learning. I can say I will be frequenting this place from now on so you'll will have to get used to my dumb questions and pointless posts. ;)

[Head Roller]

that is some really nice work syco... love the green as well.

[Annie]

And no matter what you ask (there is no dumb question by the way) no one will ever talk down on you like it happens on those other places

:fing02:

[syco26]

Yeah I know there is no such thing as a dumb question....... exept for the dumb ones lol

Here is an update. Spent a few more hours in the shed last night once it cooled down a bit. Scorcher here again today so I'm going to have to takle this one after work in the evenings for a couple hours a day. Did the white base on the left tank and started tackling the black. I can see this will take a while but I think it should be worth it. Alkso I borrwed a camera so the photos are a bit better than the camera phone but still not great.Plase crit honestly, none of the sugar coated either please. Need it as real as possible as I need to grow some more as an artist.
Thanks
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/syco26/RicksTanks1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/syco26/RicksTankRight.jpg

[prtchevy]

Sorry, but I don't have any critique on this artwork......that's because I think it looks great!!!I will be watching your progress on this as I'm curious about the outcome. I am not the best with colors, so any project that plays with colors, I'm paying attention.

[EyE_WaTTa]

I'm waiting for the candie part, I need to see how they are used over the black and white as I have my own pic that I want to use candies on and hopefully this way I won't screw anything up.

[borris]

I think your getting to dark to fast I would like to see more white and black and less gra.y before the kandies

[TrikerJim]

Beautiful work. The black really helps define the artwork. Borris makes a good point though. If you plan to candy it, you might want more light areas. The skull in particular is pretty dark in areas, you may want to go back and add some lightness.

[Annie]

Borris is right: If you are going to candy, leave yourself some room to go darker and lighter with the candy. It's easier to make it darker afterwards then lighter: rarely looks right when you try to make a spot lighter unless you spend a lot of time on it.

But besides that, it looks really good! Hard to critic further so far. Just make sure you keep in mind your light source and you will be allright.

After the candy, you can still come back with dark tones to adjust the dark areas.

:)

[shane]

i like it man, really do! i like dark images a lot more tho so maybe thats a bad thing for you :17b:

[syco26]

Thanks all for the replies. The photos actually make the picture look darker than what it really is but I am hearing you about the candies. I haven't really done anything like this before so it is all trial and error. Not too sure yet if I will put any colour in it either. I did plan to do highlights again afterwards but I may have to lighten it up some more like suggested. If I was to complete this piece like this could I clear it the way it is then add the candies over the top so if the customer or myself don't like it I can remove it with out killing the under painting? Also what is the best way to mix up a detail black? 1:1 black to reducer plus some thinners. And once mixed mix 1:1 the colour with intercoat clear? This is how I have been mixing my black because I seem to over reduce it too much and have spidering issues if I don't ad the intercoat. Any better ways to mix black?
Thanks again for the crits it is greatfully appreciated.

[TrikerJim]

I would suggest using intercoat clear, if you want to protect the artwork, and see what the candy will do. I have no suggestion for mixing the black. I have the same problem as you. When I reduce it too much, I have spidering. I have tried adding mixing clear but the results weren't that much better. There are some black candies available, but I haven't tried them yet.

[Annie]

Thanks all for the replies. The photos actually make the picture look darker than what it really is but I am hearing you about the candies. I haven't really done anything like this before so it is all trial and error. Not too sure yet if I will put any colour in it either. I did plan to do highlights again afterwards but I may have to lighten it up some more like suggested. If I was to complete this piece like this could I clear it the way it is then add the candies over the top so if the customer or myself don't like it I can remove it with out killing the under painting? Also what is the best way to mix up a detail black? 1:1 black to reducer plus some thinners. And once mixed mix 1:1 the colour with intercoat clear? This is how I have been mixing my black because I seem to over reduce it too much and have spidering issues if I don't ad the intercoat. Any better ways to mix black?
Thanks again for the crits it is greatfully appreciated.

Clearcoating your black and white work is the best thing you can do cuz with intercoat, you wont be able to wipe off the candy without destroying your work. Even sanding would be extremely risky. You have too much work to try to save time and not clear.

For the black, maybe reduce a little less then 1-1 cuz it's not as thick as the white. I never put any thinner in my colors but that doesn't mean it can be done. But in my mind, it seems to make it more slippery.

Just adjust your mix ratio and pressure on a similar surface until its perfect and the do the work :)

[TrikerJim]

Thanks for the correction, Annie! I've always used intercoat clear to protect my artwork. I didn't know you could wipe off candy over a finish clear. I've been lucky enough to never have to take candy off. What do you use to wipe off candy, and it doesn't affect the clear?

[Annie]

Thanks for the correction, Annie! I've always used intercoat clear to protect my artwork. I didn't know you could wipe off candy over a finish clear. I've been lucky enough to never have to take candy off. What do you use to wipe off candy, and it doesn't affect the clear?

You can use paint reducer, and then a final wash. Intercoat is clear basecoat so thats the same thing as paint but without pigment.

Intercoat is really good to use at different stage of the airbrush work cuz it will give you a little room to sand if you make a mistake without sanding the artwork underneath. Or if you want to lock down your work to protect it cuz you will be a couple days without touching it, when you come back even after several weeks, you can lightly sand, shoot a fresh coat of intercoat and continue to airbrush without worrying about adhesion. :)

Sometimes you can't take the time to clear, wait for it to cure, wet sand and go on. It depends on the job and on the price :yes:

[TrikerJim]

Thanks for the heads up. I figured on putting enough intercoat on so that I could sand it off without danger of getting to my artwork. I've never heard of this. I will remember though. Thanks! Never know when it will come in handy. I hate sanding stuff off. It takes forever.

[Annie]

Always make sure you don't spray it too heavy or it will wet the artwork and will be destroyed. Ask Petey about that... ;) (I still feel sorry about that Pete :yes: )

[shane]

ok got to interject somethen here, great responses and all but there is another option, if your using the sem mix clear you can add a hardener to it which will lock it down hard and then it could be used as a fill clear i wouldnt go to thick, maybe coats or so, but it can be done, PPG dbc 500 can be hardened as well just as any base coat of theres. the number for the PPG one is DX57, and i am not positive but i think the one for the sem is the "real hardener" for the real clear, When this is done it converts the standard base coat to a hardened product and it will have a little bit of gloss to it, its used in the door jams and such. this will not however take the place of any uro clear coat. the converted has no UV protection and very little if any impact resistance. But how many times you going to crash yer door jams?????, also i would not recommend using a reducer on top of a urethane clear, it you get it to wet on there all hell will break loose and the reducer will go right to the bone and its a friggin nasty thing to fix. is this case where you want to see what a candy would look like the way i would do it is, shoot your uro clear let it dry up a few days and then shoot a candy mix over it , shoot it very dry and dont sand the clear first. if you dont like it sand it off with some 1000 grit or use some rubbing compound on it and it would come right off. if you were happy with the color you could simply sand the uro clear and do your candy work then re clear it. just make damn sure you get all of the candy you laid down for your look see! If you shoot it to wet your liable to stain the uro clear so to shoot dry use the fastest reducer you got, back the gun up and crank up the air a bit, dont shoot wet on wet give it a long time between coats to completely gas off, like maybe 20 mins or so. this will ensure you not burying and reducer and trapin gas! hope this helps you out man

[syco26]

Thanks all for the replies again. Yeah I was planing on laying down dupont clear then letting it set up for a couple of days then lightly sanding it then hitting it with candy. If I didn't like it I was going to go heavy handed with prepsol then lightly sand and reclear. If it did look good I was going to lock it down with intercoat clear and let that set for an hour or two then hit it with clear again. If I lock down the candy with intercoat will that stop the 2k clear form melting my candy? I had this issue on a job last month. I had to airbrush a stainless fridge door a a harley, a pinup, some true fire and come lettering. I got a stencil cut for the lettering with a 3mm key line, pilled the letters and sprayed them black then pilled the pin stripe and sprayed it with candy blood red. When I layed down my clear coat I layed it down way too wet straight up and the candy started to bleed a bit. Any wetter and I think I would have been in some serious trouble.

[Annie]

Great point Shane, in fact, when I really wanna lock down something with intercoat, I always add basecoat hardener. I totally forgot to mention that. Well, I always add hardener to my intercoat actually... lol It does have a little more gloss but not like clear. So don't get fooled people! Do not use it as a final top coat.

For the reducer wipe, I had to do it a couple times to save a job. But it has to be done FAST and then you rewipe everything with final wash to take it all off. But it can work...especially when you have a nasty reaction going on.

But Shane's idea of applying the candy over unsanded clear is great! Didn't think about that.

[shane]

Thanks all for the replies again. Yeah I was planing on laying down dupont clear then letting it set up for a couple of days then lightly sanding it then hitting it with candy. If I didn't like it I was going to go heavy handed with prepsol then lightly sand and reclear. If it did look good I was going to lock it down with intercoat clear and let that set for an hour or two then hit it with clear again. If I lock down the candy with intercoat will that stop the 2k clear form melting my candy? I had this issue on a job last month. I had to airbrush a stainless fridge door a a harley, a pinup, some true fire and come lettering. I got a stencil cut for the lettering with a 3mm key line, pilled the letters and sprayed them black then pilled the pin stripe and sprayed it with candy blood red. When I layed down my clear coat I layed it down way too wet straight up and the candy started to bleed a bit. Any wetter and I think I would have been in some serious trouble.

another common misconception, intercoat clear, mix clear or what ever you want to call it will NOT stop bleeding or color transfer at all! that is not what it is for and dont try to use it for that, it is simply a clear base coat, it is just as permeable as regular base coat, if you catalyze it then it becomes a little more stable but its still not a color block. A urethane 2 stage clear is all that will work for that. to stop the color transfer or bleed shoot dry coats at the start of your session, and just know you will be sanding and reclearing or buffin in the end so a few extra coats maybe a good idear, and mix your candys weaker, instead of the 6 to one your probably using go to 6 to one and add more coats. :em0200:

[Annie]

Shane, does the candy bleed only on the way up or does it go down to the metal too??? :thinking:

I know it will blend through whatever is shot on top of it unless it's cleared, but will it tint whats underneath? In case you want to sand a part to fix it? Weird question I know... lol Paint rep usually run away from me.. lol

[shane]

ok with out gittin technical to far here, candy is a liquid tint very highly concentrated and finly ground particles of color, when you mix them in mix clear you doing it to even them out so they can be sprayed in a flat even pattern, thats why a weaker mixture and more coats always ends up lookin better then one coat of a real stiff mixture. ok enuf of that part. now when yopu mix them in the clear and shoot them on they are still active altho they are in one place they are ready to move again as soo as you put a reducer or thin liquid of the same chemical make up as that which got them to the surface they will them disperse into that liquid, so in short yes they will go down and up and side ways. some times like when you put a nice dry white high light on top of them all will be good cause the white you put on there was farily dry, then you hit it with that wet clear that has reducer in it that reducer goes right in there and makes them fine particles move again and they do, all you see it the movement thru the white but they are also goin all over the place, thats why tru fire all melts together when its cleared, its almost all candy concentrate. cause when you think about it the reducer you used to get them there went away right, its not wet no more cause the reducer is evaporated, well when you put more reducer over it whats going to happen?its called "rewetting" and it happens with all colors but since the candys are so fine and so condensed you see the affect more, with base colors and opaques this is what happens when it "chemically" bond some of the color moves up into the clear, the particles are so big tho this movement is slight and not noticeable to our eyes. maybe now its eaiser to under stand why a intercoat clear wont lock them down, a urethane clear uses a catalyst (hardener) to lock these particles were there at once that urethane sets up and the reducer comes outa it on the top every thing is set in plastic basically. the only way they could move again is if you sanded down to that layer where the candy and clear mated and the reducer had not completely came out of the clear, theres a layer there where every thing is in limbo, the top of the clear has sealed up and gassed off but right below that is where this limbo layer is, thats where if you sand into it and try to shoot base over it is wrinkles up and crap, cause you hit that layer of non gassed out reducer, catalyst, and color are all just waitin to move again, you hit it with reducer and POOF! they move and not in a good way.
so yes they go down not to the metal tho cause it will hit the primer or sealer, both of which would have been catalyzed, and thus none chemiclay penetrable with yer week chemicals. :68:

also i should say it will only move as far as the liquid will make it, when it gets to the point where its easier for the reducer to come up instead of side ways it wont move no more. as the reducer travels side to side or down it looses its straight cause its gittin diluted as it moves, so it wont move far. just far enuf to screw ya up!

[Marge Cameron]

I can't offer you much advice on candies, unless it's the kind you get at Halloween. ;) But I can say this is looking pretty cool so far. If you're still concerned about blending the black work into the background, you may wish to consider using some darker greens for the transition. It will help add depth without harsh contrast. Just a thought. Looking forward to the next set of pics.

[sjcycle]

Syco can't wait to see the finished project. Looks awesome so far.

Shane I was a bit confused on your post about candies bleeding between a intercoat clear layer. I read your explanation and it cleared up my foggy brain. I haven't experienced anything like that but I suppose it is because I use water based paints and sg100 or a non water based intercoat clear to lock in my colors.

SJ

[PaintingWithPressure]

Looking good , nice detail and shading !

[papabear502]

did we ever see this one all finished up?..Did i miss out?

[EyE_WaTTa]

I don't remember seeing a finished picture coz i wanted to see the candy process to give me an idea of what to do. C'mon Syco, give us an update :)


EyE
:1eye: